nnozomi | una casa nell'Honan

・Rereading Nella Last’s diaries, and thinking that it’s clear that Nella read a lot and had a good writer’s ear—she’s not just putting down a stream-of-consciousness summary of her day and her thoughts, but, consciously or otherwise, arranging it novelistically—the way she moves among reported speech, summarized speech, actions, past history, and her own thoughts to evoke scenes and characters, her pacing and phrasing, whether she leaps into a topic or leads up to it sidewise, and so on. Some of it may be thanks to her editors, but I suspect that mostly she just knew what she was doing. Also she does not hesitate to cuss on occasion, with elan: I think I may take up saying “Hell’s blue light!” myself.

・I was listening to Turandot, a favorite opera; it has three ministers unfortunately Orientalistically named Ping, Pang, and Pong, and once again all I could think of was MenyouPing, Pangzi, and...well, there is no way you can get “Pong” from any of Wu Xie’s names, but maybe he’s using an alias. This operatic Iron Triangle even has a (very pretty) trio about how they miss their countryside homes and want to quit the bureaucrat life and go back there; clearly they are singing about the house in Yucun.

・I had one of my favorite types of translation jobs the other day: a second-grader’s report card. I can do without the extremely bullshit MEXT evaluation criteria, but it’s nice to get a sense of a little kid I will never meet, such as this one, who “wrote down his thoughts while we were studying the multiplication tables and presented them to the class.” Now I really want to know what R-kun’s opinions on the multiplication tables were. (Incidentally I also learned the Chinese for “memorizing,” 背诵, which amuses me because it includes the character for “back” and makes me picture someone holding the text behind their back while they work on learning it.)

・I have a pretty good idea of what I want to write for my main Yuletide fic, and have found the piece of external information that will let me get started on it, although I still want more (could I just make it up? Yes, I could, but it’s more fun to work from the originals). I have a feeling this fic is going to have my name in neon lights all over it, but I can only write what I can write. About 400 words so far, in fragments. Also a half a dozen prompts noted for treats, although I’m sure I won’t actually end up with that many...

・Non-Yuletide writing thinking: I found myself planning a scene and asking a) what’s the characters’ objective for this event, and b) what’s my objective for this scene? I can’t decide whether I definitely need to know the answer to b) to keep the scene moving in the right direction, or whether it will flatten the characters out and I should just let them do their thing and see what happens. You would think I would have figured this sort of thing out by now. How do other people approach this?
(On the other hand, a minor character who was previously a complete blank kindly developed a whole backstory, name, and personality, so that was satisfying.)

I was going to put up some photos but I'm too tired to fuss with uploading, this post was mostly written already. Next time. Be safe and well.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

clevermanka

Translating a report card! So charming!

Best of luck with the writing. Personally I have to know both those things before putting words down. Once in a while a scene will take an unexpected turn in the middle of writing but it usually winds up supporting the objective better than my original plan and that's always fun. But I need at least the idea in place or nothing ever happens.

From:

nnozomi

But I need at least the idea in place or nothing ever happens.
This goes both ways for me--sometimes the scene meanders and ends up being useless, sometimes I get that unexpected turn that works. I feel like my current plot is complicated enough that I can't afford meandering, though...

From:

laireshi

The way I zeroed in on that Menyouping mention ;)

Re: writing... I'm such a pantser in this case ;;; I write what feels right in the moment. I realise this is fully unhelpful :(

From:

nnozomi

The way I zeroed in on that Menyouping mention ;)
Just for you, 哈哈 ;)

I write what feels right in the moment. I realise this is fully unhelpful :(
No, it helps me to hear how other people do it. I do very much the same in shorter fic; now how to translate that to the longer form...

From:

elenothar

This operatic Iron Triangle even has a (very pretty) trio about how they miss their countryside homes and want to quit the bureaucrat life and go back there; clearly they are singing about the house in Yucun.

I'm making the most ridiculous pleased face right now. Operatic Iron Triangle! I love it.

Re: planning a scene - my personal way of doing it is not thinking about b) too hard (sometimes I know what I'm doing with it, sometimes I don't, sometimes I accidentally do a good thing). Admittedly, that's probably bad writing practice and most people would tell you as much, but for me it's one of those things that just slow me down too much and leech the fun out of writing, if I'm constantly thinking about what each scene is achieving. For fanfic I'm all for not overthinking it too much. For original writing, it does make more work for you in the editing stage because you have to figure out what the scene is doing on a meta level then. So, as with everything writing-related, ymmv...

From:

nnozomi

Operatic Iron Triangle! I love it.
<3 Now I really want a production of Turandot with the three ministers dressed as Xiaoge, Pangzi and Wu Xie. (The big Chinese production a while back was heavy on the Forbidden City pomp and circumstance, no lost tombs in there. Too bad...).

For fanfic I'm all for not overthinking it too much. For original writing, it does make more work for you in the editing stage because you have to figure out what the scene is doing on a meta level then.
Yes, this. I think I'm afraid that the scene will end up as boring filler if I don't give it a definite purpose beyond "the characters need to accomplish this for their own purposes...".

From:

elenothar

I mean, 'necessary for the narrative to carry forward' is also a meta reason for a scene to exist? If the storyline or a character arc needs it, then it needs to be in there. Though personally I also find that if you're invested in the characters then boring filler basically stops existing (that might be the fanfic part of my brain piping up again...).

From:

nnozomi

personally I also find that if you're invested in the characters then boring filler basically stops existing (that might be the fanfic part of my brain piping up again...).
Yeah, that's an interesting point! luzula below said something that reminded me that if I don't enjoy writing the scene (I mean, if I find it boring, as opposed to distressing etc.), then I'm probably better off changing plans entirely.

From:

elenothar

That's a very good point! Or at least figure out why you're finding the scene boring yourself and change something about the scene in response, if you don't want to entirely scrap it as a character point etc.

From:

nnozomi

Or at least figure out why you're finding the scene boring yourself and change something about the scene in response, if you don't want to entirely scrap it as a character point etc.
Good advice m_m . I think it's likely to come down to "either change this secondary character or remove them" to get that done. (One character who proved not as interesting as I expected is already slated to be killed off, sorry, hon...) ;)

From:

elenothar

This is exactly why writers get the bloodthirsty reputation XD Little do the readers know it's just to save them from reading about boring characters...

Honestly, I always feel like such a hypocrite discussing writing advice, since I follow so little of it (including actually continuing my original projects as opposed to writing fanfic all the time...).

From:

chestnut_pod

Oh, the report card sounds so cute! It reminds me of my brief stint translating for the registrar's office in an art university -- so fun to see the wacky titles of everyone's senior art projects or what have you.

From:

nnozomi

so fun to see the wacky titles of everyone's senior art projects or what have you.
Oh wow, that does sound like fun. (Also like a considerable translation challenge!)

From:

trobadora

and once again all I could think of was MenyouPing, Pangzi, and...well, there is no way you can get “Pong” from any of Wu Xie’s names, but maybe he’s using an alias

OMG!!!!! :D

Regarding the writing question, I don't need the definitive answer to what my objective is for a scene, but I need an answer. I need something to aim for, otherwise the thing will just flail aimlessly. I may change my mind eventually and realise that actually it's something completely different, but I have to have something to go on. My general rule is that if I don't even know what the point of a scene is supposed to be, either I need to figure it out or I need to drop the scene.

From:

nnozomi

My general rule is that if I don't even know what the point of a scene is supposed to be, either I need to figure it out or I need to drop the scene.
Yeah, I should probably adopt this also. I remember reading somewhere that every scene is supposed to be doing three things at minimum, which seems like a lot. Right now I'm stuck on getting the scene in question from meeting the characters' needs to also meeting the needs of the plot arc in general... .

From:

trobadora

I feel like any given scene will automatically end up doing multiple things just by being a scene that works well in its context. But knowing at least one thing it's supposed to do before you write it definitely helps. *g*

Good luck figuring out your scene!

From:

nnozomi

I feel like any given scene will automatically end up doing multiple things just by being a scene that works well in its context.
Yes, good point, and thanks for the good wishes!

(And to continue the discussion from your place, you're so right about 无人知心 and Ye Zun's way with words. Maybe in terms of natural aptitudes, he was the humanities twin and Shen Wei was the STEM one? ;) )

From:

trobadora

I don't know if it's a faulty impression from not speaking Chinese, but I think Shen Wei can also be quite eloquent at times? But Ye Zun is the one who uses words as tools of manipulation, so he has honed that ability more. *ponders*

From:

nnozomi

but I think Shen Wei can also be quite eloquent at times? But Ye Zun is the one who uses words as tools of manipulation, so he has honed that ability more.
No, you're quite right, I was oversimplifying for the sake of a joke ;). And Shen Wei is a teacher, after all, so he's accustomed to using words to manipulate a room in a (largely) positive sense, the way we see him doing in the very first scene. Ye Zun is probably more aware of deliberately using words to control others (maybe he did learn that from the Rebel Leader at some point, using words along with mind control--he certainly uses words to mess up poor little!Ye Zun in their first scene together). It does always seem to come back to the two brothers having traits in common, though ;(

(also sorry, I really should've been continuing this discussion over at your place! Didn't mean to hijack.)

From:

trobadora

It does always seem to come back to the two brothers having traits in common, though ;(

Yes! And it's so fascinating how differently they express them. ♥

From:

china_shop

or whether it will flatten the characters out and I should just let them do their thing and see what happens.

That's always been my feeling (and one of the reasons I have trouble writing to an outline; I prefer following the characters around to see what happens), but then, I'm writing fanfic, and the characters can't always be easily bent to my purpose. Maybe it's different with original fic/characters, since there's no external referent?

From:

nnozomi

I'm writing fanfic, and the characters can't always be easily bent to my purpose. Maybe it's different with original fic/characters, since there's no external referent?
That's an interesting point. I'm helped there because this is Volume 2 so I feel like I already have established characters to some extent. I think the difference I'm feeling now is that most of my fics have been (relatively) short--I haven't written many fanfics over 10K--and the original thing is trying to be novel-length, so there are a lot of scenes which are, mm, less immediately emotionally/plotwise significant than in my average fic, and how to make them still worth reading.

(Also, your icon is now making me picture Zhao Xinci running a fanfic exchange. Everything would run like clockwork, with rules spelled out beyond any possibility of ambiguity, and he would give no extensions regardless of the situation...(.

From:

china_shop

so there are a lot of scenes which are, mm, less immediately emotionally/plotwise significant than in my average fic
Oh, yeah, that's one of the problems I'm having with my auction fic -- why did I ever think case fic would be a good idea?

(Also, your icon is now making me picture Zhao Xinci running a fanfic exchange. Everything would run like clockwork, with rules spelled out beyond any possibility of ambiguity, and he would give no extensions regardless of the situation...(.
LOL!!! And he would death-glare at any pairings/tropes he disapproved of. :D :D :D

From:

nnozomi

why did I ever think case fic would be a good idea?
These things are tricky! I mean, I gave one of my origfic characters a problem to solve, and it took me LITERALLY OVER A YEAR to figure out the solution to it myself. ;) I have faith that you can pull it off!

And he would death-glare at any pairings/tropes he disapproved of.
lolol, and make it very clear that if you write them and it doesn't go well it's 자업자득 (I can't remember the English) for you. (On the other hand, every now and then someone would unexpectedly get an extension they really needed, and no one would be able to figure out why, but those emails might have been signed just "Z" instead of "ZXC"...).

From:

china_shop

자업자득
Ooh, I didn't know that one. Naver dictionary says "bringing something upon oneself" which sounds about right. Hee! And LOL at Zhang Shi's sneaky unofficial co-modding. :D

From:

nnozomi

Naver dictionary says "bringing something upon oneself" which sounds about right.
Oh yeah, that's good. Translator fail on my part, oh dear. "serves you right" might also work.

LOL at Zhang Shi's sneaky unofficial co-modding. :D
I mean, you KNOW Zhang Shi would.

From:

china_shop

I like to think Zhang Shi would, but iirc we only ever see him be nice to Guo Changcheng and Zhao Yunlan, and he has an ulterior motive for Changcheng... (Am I wrong? Do we get to see him being more generally beneficent?)

From:

nnozomi

It's a good question! You're usually more in favor of Zhang Shi than I am, so I feel like we should be discussing this the other way around ;) I guess a lot of the time it's hard to tell when he's being beneficent and when he's manipulating things to move his way (like the way he lets Changcheng escape them near the end, in that scene where we see him and ZXC physically struggling with each other for control?).
(Maybe he'd have an ulterior motive for giving people extensions, lol)

From:

china_shop

Ha! True. It's so difficult with a character who is restraining himself as much as possible most of the time (to keep his promise to Xinci, I presume) and only pokes his head out when he really must -- especially given his agenda. But I can't help feeling that, to a person who's been conscious for 10k years, a lot of day-to-day stuff (like exchange deadlines!) is going to seem trivial in the extreme.

(Oh no, now I want to do a scene discussion about his big speech to blind!ZYL, and why he said it all. Isn't he just fueling the conflict between Yunlan and Xinci with those "once you've chosen, never regret!" words? No wonder Xinci is cranky with him! But I wasn't going to do a scene discussion this round, now we've opened the series up to other formats. *adds it to the list for some other time*)

Edited Date: 2021-11-06 08:45 pm (UTC)

From:

luzula

Non-Yuletide writing thinking: I found myself planning a scene and asking a) what’s the characters’ objective for this event, and b) what’s my objective for this scene? I can’t decide whether I definitely need to know the answer to b) to keep the scene moving in the right direction, or whether it will flatten the characters out and I should just let them do their thing and see what happens.

Hmm. Sometimes I know, but not always? Sometimes I just write a scene because it delights me, and it makes me feel self-indulgent. OTOH, those are often scenes which my beta readers then also love, and will say things like "no, no, don't cut it, it's totally advancing the emotional plot". Sorry, I guess that wasn't helpful...

From:

nnozomi

Sometimes I just write a scene because it delights me, and it makes me feel self-indulgent. OTOH, those are often scenes which my beta readers then also love, and will say things like "no, no, don't cut it, it's totally advancing the emotional plot". Sorry, I guess that wasn't helpful...
No, that is definitely helpful, especially because you often write longer things. It is actually pretty likely that I should be thinking about the angle of "what's fun for me about writing this scene?" as well.

From:

china_shop

It is actually pretty likely that I should be thinking about the angle of "what's fun for me about writing this scene?" as well.

Ooh, that's a good thought! Yes!