aftermaths?

[nnozomi]

As a self-distraction because my neck hurts and I'm gloomy for no especial reason, have some thoughts on non-magical endings to fantasy books and, completely unrelated other than in reference to the post title word, some very angsty Zhao Xinci and Zhang Shi from the fic I'm still not writing.

I didn’t learn until I got into online fandom, many years after first reading the book, that most people (?) don’t like the ending of Susan Cooper’s Silver on the Tree, when Merriman makes Bran and the three Drews forget all the things that have happened to them. I’m an outlier, I guess, because I’ve always been fond of it—Merriman’s “For Drake is no longer in his hammock, children, nor is Arthur somewhere sleeping—” speech used to move me enough that I didn’t have to look the line up to quote it just now, even though I haven’t read the book in years. I like the idea that...oh...non-magical ordinary life is as meaningful and eventful as magical adventures, especially when even if you remembered the magic, you wouldn’t have access to it (any more) and could only look wistfully back, with its glow making everything else look dull. (Also, the process of forgetting is itself magic, not a lobotomy; I have faith in Merriman to be able to remove the relevant memories without deleting the accompanying personal growth.)
The same applies to the end of Diana Wynne Jones’ Witch Week, when it’s clear that Nan and Charles and their cohorts are going to be just as good at and just as excited by their this-world skills as by their magic, and that they don’t need the comparison. (Witch Week, along with to some extent its companion Charmed Life, also makes the point that living in a world with magic can be just as unpleasant as the non-magical option, through either the misuse of magic or people’s misreactions to it.)
Pamela Dean’s Secret Country series takes another angle and has some of its children decide to keep living in a magical world while others return to this one, noting that it’s not necessarily a one-size-fits-all question (also, Ted and Ruth and Laura are likely to go on being heavily involved in magic, while Jane and Simon and Barney and Bran would have had memories of it but no more). I’m (still) waiting for her next volume, currently in progress, to find out if we ever get to see more of Ellen and Patrick, in this world or the Hidden Land.

Zhao Xinci takes as deep a breath as he can manage. "Fucking smart of you to be wearing Yunlan's body," he says, surprised at how steady his voice is. "Even my face isn't thick enough to put my hands around my son's neck. If it were anyone else--" He swallows, and goes on talking, because it might stop Zhang Shi from saying her name again. "Twenty years not being able to lay a hand on you without hurting myself, and now when I could finally land a punch you're--" His throat closes.
Zhang Shi is quiet, waiting, the way he always has.
"My wife," Zhao Xinci says, not using her name because he wants to say my, my wife, the woman I married. "That wasn't--That might have happened even without you."
Something about the line of Zhang Shi's shoulders--Zhao Yunlan's shoulders, with Zhang Shi in them--softens a little.
Zhao Xinci takes a breath, and then another one, and another, because he still can't get his son's name past his lips. Twenty years with this man and just a year apart, a year free, and now everything is terrible.

(Everything is not terrible, or at least not going to stay that way, knock wood.) Be safe and well.

Comments

[clevermanka]

Oh that snippet is SO GOOD. I have a lot of Zhao Xinci and Zhang Shi feelings that I'm only superficially addressing in Redemption. I'd love to see it explored more.

I'm in the camp that doesn't like removal of memories, but otoh I don't think memories of Narnia didn't do the Pevensies any favors, so... *shrug*

[nnozomi]

Thank you! I am still mystified by how I managed to get obsessed by Zhao Xinci of all people, but somehow that happened. Maybe someday I will actually write this fic. Looking forward to see how they appear in your Redemption too...

I always forget about Narnia on that point! It's not a favorite of mine (just not as much my thing), but on reflection, maybe the Pevensies would definitely have been happier forgetting, while Eustace and Jill ABSOLUTELY DESERVED to remember their adventures, what a weird kneejerk reaction from my brain ;)

[trobadora]

That is a fantastic snippet! I'm really enjoying how you're writing Zhao Xinci. :D

I'm one of the people who hated the ending of Silver on the Tree for taking away memory, experience, character development. I dislike this kind of thing both for the characters (for one, they're either regressed, or they end up changed but without the foundations for that change, and I'm deeply uneasy with both; for another, the character relationships I'm invested in that would not exist without that foundation are just deleted), and for thematic reasons (if a return to the mundane is only possible by forcefully being stripped of even the memory of the magical, then that inherently devalues the mundane for me). Not sure if that makes sense to you ...

[nnozomi]

Thank you! <3 Zhao Xinci would probably not appreciate being my stress relief from work/lack of work/origfic revisions etc; some time I will actually sit down and try to write the non-angsty parts that aren't as cathartic.

Your argument definitely makes sense; it's not how I think about it but I can absolutely see that point of view.
if a return to the mundane is only possible by forcefully being stripped of even the memory of the magical, then that inherently devalues the mundane for me
Again, in a way I see your point. I think this works for me by rendering the magical almost a metaphor, which does not work for a lot of people at all. (I'm not very coherent right now, sorry, but it's interesting to contemplate.)

[trobadora]

Yeah, I see how that can work for you, even if it doesn't for me. Definitely interesting to see how people read this very differently!

[nnozomi]

Definitely interesting to see how people read this very differently!
Oh yes! I love hearing all the different ideas.

[maggie33]

This is a wonderful snippet. I'm sure it will be a great fic if you'll decide to write it one day, because you write them both so well. :)

[nnozomi]

Thank you so much :) Right now sitting down and writing some Zhao Xinci angst (of all people, lol) is a way of getting stress relief from other things; at some point maybe I will try to pull it together into a real fic.

[landofnowhere]

The thought just hit me : how do I *know* I haven't been to a fantasy world and had my memories wiped? (Apart from the fact that I'm a materialist, generally.) Odd and unsettling.

[nnozomi]

Do you know Diane Duane's Young Wizards series? Somewhere there's a reference to people who, having renounced their wizardry, don't remember it and think it's pretty normal to "have a nameless sorrow somewhere at the bottom of their heart"... .
My competing reactions are something like "but if I did go to a fantasy world I would want to know what it was like, curiosity!" and "well, if I don't remember it all I can do is do my best in this one...".

[cyphomandra]

Hmm. Witch Week’s ending works for me while Silver on the Tree’s doesn’t (well, partially; I like it for Will) and now I’m thinking why. I think with Witch Week there is that real sense of the world’s being wrong, somehow, with that fervid and friable feel to it, and the moment when it snaps back into place is such a fantastic vindication of all the magics that the characters possess. But Silver on the Tree feels too much like putting aside (childish) magical things and growing up for me to feel at ease with it.

[luzula]

Off topic: what is your icon from? In style it looks very like an illustration from a children's book I had when I was young, about children living on farms near a small seaport in France; in Provence, I think.

[cyphomandra]

It’s from a painting by Rita Angus - Boats, Island Bay - which is in Wellington, New Zealand, and although the local saying is that you can’t beat Wellington on a good day it’s not usually that Mediterranean:D I think this icon is also from one of her paintings.

[luzula]

Thanks! *does an image search* Oh, those are some lovely paintings.

[nnozomi]

with that fervid and friable feel to it
This is a wonderful description!

But Silver on the Tree feels too much like putting aside (childish) magical things and growing up for me to feel at ease with it.
I can see that reading, yeah. I think I read it as more like a change of eras in a way (I think I'm having different reactions all up and down this thread, but why not, everyone has different interesting things to say and I contain multitudes) -- that what the magic could do is now giving way to non-magical manifestations, like the evil painter's artwork in Greenwitch versus Barney's drawings. (I don't know if that makes sense, sorry, but I'm enjoying thinking about it...).

[chestnut_pod]

I enjoyed hearing your thoughts on what, in my head, I call the "Susan ending" after Narnia. I agree with cyphomandra up the page, actually, that I am not wholly against these endings when done well, but I am angry at Cooper's specifically for not being done to my standards. Jane, especially, who has been proven to have a profound connection with the Wild magic beyond the Light and the Dark -- with the Greenwitch and the Lady -- so why in the world are her memories forfeit because of this Dark/Light squabble? She doesn't even get as much agency as Bran does, and it feels like a careless (and sexist -- don't her connections to female/feminine-coded magical beings count as much as her connection to Merriman and Will?) dropped thread more than any kind of commentary about the value of the real world.

[nnozomi]

it feels like a careless (and sexist -- don't her connections to female/feminine-coded magical beings count as much as her connection to Merriman and Will?) dropped thread
Oh, I didn't really think of it from that perspective, that is fascinating. In one way I think you could read it as Jane being the continuation of the feminine-coded beings, the Lady and the Greenwitch, into the next era where magic is no longer what matters--but it's on the reader to do that, you're right that the text doesn't touch on it at all.

[china_shop]

As a self-distraction because my neck hurts and I'm gloomy for no especial reason

I hope the gloominess has passed! *huuuuuuuuuuugs*

I like the idea that...oh...non-magical ordinary life is as meaningful and eventful as magical adventures, especially when even if you remembered the magic, you wouldn’t have access to it (any more) and could only look wistfully back, with its glow making everything else look dull.

Ot1h, I can see that (and your phrasing is seductively convincing ♥)! And I haven't read any Susan Cooper. But otoh, I get a bit cranky about mindwipes, especially of female characters. I'm still annoyed with Neil Gaiman for the end of The Graveyard Book, because (iirc) one of the characters mindwiped a girl just because it was convenient to erase her trauma, and I was like, "No, you don't get to do that!" Because consent!


And ohhhhhh, your fic snippet!!! aksjdfaldksfja;sdlkfja;sdlkfjas;ldfkjasd;lfkjasd;flkjasfadsfad;flkjdf *rolls around in it with so much glee*

"My wife," Zhao Xinci says, not using her name because he wants to say my, my wife, the woman I married. "That wasn't--That might have happened even without you."
Something about the line of Zhang Shi's shoulders--Zhao Yunlan's shoulders, with Zhang Shi in them--softens a little.

I don't know if I'm just being stupid. Is he talking about Shen Xi's death, or about the strain in their relationship?

[nnozomi]

(somehow forgot this part on the first pass, but) thank you for hugs and anti-gloomy wishes! Mostly work-related and requiring kind of a mental shift on my part and not much to be done, sigh. *hugs back*

But otoh, I get a bit cranky about mindwipes, especially of female characters.
Yes, I can see that too. I think it's kind of intrinsically a mileage-varying thing, and also has to be done well to be convincing, and often it isn't.

and I'm glad you liked the snippet!
I don't know if I'm just being stupid. Is he talking about Shen Xi's death, or about the strain in their relationship?
You are not being stupid, there wasn't any context provided. He's talking about Shen Xi's death, which I don't think ZXC would consider ZS responsible for in any significant way (although I don't remember that scene clearly because it upsets me, sigh). With regard to the strain in their marriage, well, I have many thoughts about this. Zhao Xinci and I agree that Zhang Shi was at fault for a lot of the strain between him and Shen Xi, and he’s not letting ZS off the hook for that, but at some point he’s also going to have to stop and examine how much he’s making ZS the scapegoat--if ZS had never entered him (oy) would things between him and Shen Xi really have been so good and easy all along? were there really no other issues? (especially because now things seem really good and promising with Cheng Xinyan, but that’s how his marriage started off too)
(someday I will actually write this fic?)

[china_shop]

He's talking about Shen Xi's death, which I don't think ZXC would consider ZS responsible for in any significant way

*nodnod* That's why I was confused.

With regard to the strain in their marriage, well, I have many thoughts about this. Zhao Xinci and I agree that Zhang Shi was at fault for a lot of the strain between him and Shen Xi, and he’s not letting ZS off the hook for that, but at some point he’s also going to have to stop and examine how much he’s making ZS the scapegoat--if ZS had never entered him (oy) would things between him and Shen Xi really have been so good and easy all along? were there really no other issues?

Yeah, I mean, how much was Zhao Xinci reacting against Zhang Shi in the time they were cohabiting -- how much did Zhang Shi shape him and turn him into not-the-man-Shen-Xi married. All of that. It's fascinating to think about.

I'd really love to be sure, too, if the flashback scene where Zhao Xinci's in hospital and Zhao Yunlan is reading his notebook and hubrising about how he's going to make a better world with his heart, wit and brains (or whatever it was), and the flashback scene with the missing dog ("clues don't just fall from the sky") pre- or post-date Zhang Shi's arrival...

(someday I will actually write this fic?)

If/when you do, I personally will be DELIGHTED! (In case I hadn't made that clear yet. :-)

[nnozomi]

Yeah, I mean, how much was Zhao Xinci reacting against Zhang Shi in the time they were cohabiting -- how much did Zhang Shi shape him and turn him into not-the-man-Shen-Xi married. All of that. It's fascinating to think about.
Oh yes, so much this--I keep thinking about this, and it's one of those questions where there is no answer, there's just no way to know who ZXC would have been without Zhang Shi. If I wanted to take ZXC and absolutely devastate him, I would have him tell Shen Xi about ZS before her death, saying now you know why I’ve been so strange, why things have been so bad between us, and she says — no. the things that have gone wrong are part of who you've always been. I just thought once that they wouldn’t matter so much. (I am not planning to do this even if I do write this fic, because I don't think he would ever have told her, but I suspect imagining it happening this way is one of the things that wakes him up at night.)

And as you say, the flashback scenes too! So much to contemplate.

(I'm really sorry to keep rambling at you about this, especially when I may never actually get the fic written, but Zhao Xinci has now done a Zhang Shi and just taken up permanent residence at the back of my head, WHY. You're nice to join in. <3 )

[china_shop]

If I wanted to take ZXC and absolutely devastate him, I would have him tell Shen Xi about ZS before her death, saying now you know why I’ve been so strange, why things have been so bad between us, and she says — no. the things that have gone wrong are part of who you've always been. I just thought once that they wouldn’t matter so much.

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, this is so heart-slicingly true. And I think you're right, he would never have told her, but maybe she found out somehow? Maybe one of her friends was secretly Dixingren with a power of being able to discern other Dixingren? Or something. SO WONDERFULLY DEVASTATING, I AM BLEEDING!!!

(I'm really sorry to keep rambling at you about this, especially when I may never actually get the fic written, but Zhao Xinci has now done a Zhang Shi and just taken up permanent residence at the back of my head, WHY. You're nice to join in. <3 )

I loooove your rambling about this, fic or no. I'm sorry it took me a month to reply -- my tabs runneth over, and all the usual reasons. But wow, please do feel free to continue ANY TIME!

[tinny]

Hm. Interesting.

I have read Krabat, required school reading here, and it has a similar "everyone forgets about the magic" ending. I never liked that ending, but I didn't actually look closely enough at what exactly they're forgetting. I guess it's supposed to be a growing up metaphor, and I hate those on principle if it means you're forced to give up your childhood innocence.

Hm. Not sure if those are at all comparable. (I have not read any of the books you mention.)


I love the fic excerpt! I don't usually feel empathy for Zhao Xinci, but this does it. Being possessed is no fun.

[nnozomi]

Krabat is new to me, huh.
I guess it's supposed to be a growing up metaphor, and I hate those on principle if it means you're forced to give up your childhood innocence.
That's an interesting take. I don't like the "put away childish things" view either; growing-up metaphors that are more like "develop a wider and deeper perspective and see things as changed accordingly" interest me, but it's hard to read that into some of the stories we've been talking about.

I don't usually feel empathy for Zhao Xinci, but this does it. Being possessed is no fun.
thank you! I have been low-key obsessed with Zhao Xinci lately, I don't know. If I ever do write this fic, it's going to be a fun challenge to make the reader feel empathy for him while keeping him true to his difficult personality in canon.