and that you may tie to

[nnozomi]

・Looking at a translation text and wondering where the fuck ランス市 was (the most obvious transliterations would be “Lance” or “Ransu”), and finding it was Reims, brought me an instant memory of Susan Baker saying “...and can you tell me, Mrs. Dr. dear, if Reims is pronounced Rimes or Reems or Rames or Rems?” to which Anne demoralizes her by replying “I believe it’s more like ‘Rhangs,’ Susan.” “Oh those French names,” Susan groans. (Points to L.M. Montgomery for making Susan Baker hands down the most memorable character in Rilla of Ingleside, I still have a lot of her dialogue in my head years after the last time I read the book.)

・It's been my experience in my own and other people's language learning that skillful language learners are the ones who are good at making connections--between the new language and the one(s) they already know, within the new language, and so on. So that instead of endless confusing lists in your head, you have an ever-expanding network of connected nodes, as it were--spiderweb fashion, I guess, although I always picture it as a hexagonal pattern like those New York sidewalks. Do other people experience this? Would it actually be a feasible model in some sense for a foreign language course? (Not planning to create one, just curious.)

・Reading a collection of Tove Jansson's letters (expertly translated by Sarah Death from the Swedish). My usual habit of preferring letters/diaries to fiction; they're delightful, art and writing and family and life in Helsinki and a startling number of lovers both male and female, all written up with immense verve and flair.

・My Yuletide fic is getting itself written faster than I expected, with 5K so far in rough sketch form; I think it will end up in the neighborhood of 6K or so, but it needs rewriting like nobody's business and also some review of the canon for details and style. And it might be terrible anyway. Still, I have hopes of finishing it in a timely fashion and doing some treats as well.
(I've been pretty faithful about writing at least one sentence a day on my original thing as well, just so I don't completely drift away from it; we'll see where that goes.)

・Studying Chinese, I couldn't remember the word for mouse, as in the computer kind, so I just typed 小老鼠 (mouse, the whiskered kind). Half right, it’s 鼠标 (mouse indicator).

・Photos: three varieties of fruit (laire, I think I promised you a persimmon tree last year, here is one), some seasonal and peculiarly local images, and a cat-in-a-box.




Be safe and well.

Comments

[naraht]

So that instead of endless confusing lists in your head, you have an ever-expanding network of connected nodes, as it were--spiderweb fashion, I guess, although I always picture it as a hexagonal pattern like those New York sidewalks. Do other people experience this? Would it actually be a feasible model in some sense for a foreign language course? (Not planning to create one, just curious.)

Yes, I think that's definitely true! And I've had the connections explained sometimes in a language course, which helps. But I'm not sure how well you could plan out the whole thing in a course, because it has to be connections that make sense to the person and perhaps everyone builds their own network?

[nnozomi]

But I'm not sure how well you could plan out the whole thing in a course, because it has to be connections that make sense to the person and perhaps everyone builds their own network?
Yes, a good point! I guess you'd have to start with the objective connections (word roots, for instance) that make sense to everyone, and sort of plant the idea of connections and then see where each student went with it... .

[luzula]

So that instead of endless confusing lists in your head, you have an ever-expanding network of connected nodes, as it were

Yes, me too, but I think that's because I only know Indo-European languages (Swedish, English, French). Those are very easy to connect! And the small smatterings of Gaelic and Scots I'm learning in my current fandom are also possible to hook up to that. Espectially the Scots-Swedish connections, those are very cool (vikings!). But if I were to start learning, I dunno, Swahili or something, I couldn't connect it up to the languages I already know in the same way. Or maybe you're talking about other ways of making connections than actual linguistic relatedness?

Yay Yuletide progress! \o/

[nnozomi]

Especially the Scots-Swedish connections, those are very cool (vikings!).
Oh, neat! Love the direct connections between history and language of that kind, like the little bits of Portuguese that turn up in Japanese vocabulary every now and then.

But if I were to start learning, I dunno, Swahili or something, I couldn't connect it up to the languages I already know in the same way. Or maybe you're talking about other ways of making connections than actual linguistic relatedness?
No, I had in mind pretty much "connections" in the widest meaning, including everything from actual linguistic relatedness to, as you say, fandom associations and so on. I do think that the actual experience of language learning plays a part even outside language groups--like, Latin and Japanese are of course very far apart linguistically, but studying Latin in high school made it easier for me to master Japanese because I could relate the particles used to indicate case to Latin declensions. So I imagine that even if you studied Swahili or Indonesian or whatever now, you'd still find something to draw on.
(Like I was saying I've been reading Tove Jansson, and I'm curious now about how this works for Swedish-speaking Finns like her--I don't know the right terms, sorry. Swedophone??? . Conducting daily life in two completely unrelated languages.)
(sorry, that got long!)

[luzula]

Ah, okay. Yeah, of course grammatical connections can work even if the languages aren't related. For me grammar and math are similar sorts of satisfying formal systems? I think that's why I enjoyed learning some Latin and also some Quenya.

The word is "Finlandssvensk", they're a minority in Finland. : ) I guess they learn both from a young age? Although actually everyone in Finland learns Swedish in school, even if they live in a Finnish-speaking area. I suppose this is a remnant of Finland having once been Swedish, and also because of them having that Swedish-speaking minority.

[nnozomi]

For me grammar and math are similar sorts of satisfying formal systems? I think that's why I enjoyed learning some Latin and also some Quenya.
I admire your ability to apply this feeling to math, and wish I could do the same... . I know what you mean about grammar as a sort of satisfying formal system, though. (I think I imprinted early on the 2x3 verb box as a Neat Thing, you know, amo amas amat amamus amatis amant and so on.)

The word is "Finlandssvensk", they're a minority in Finland. : ) I guess they learn both from a young age? Although actually everyone in Finland learns Swedish in school, even if they live in a Finnish-speaking area. I suppose this is a remnant of Finland having once been Swedish, and also because of them having that Swedish-speaking minority.
Did not know most of this, thank you! I have a memoir somewhere at hand by a Japanese girl who went off on her own to attend high school in Rovaniemi, and I'll have to see what she says about learning Swedish. (The Tove Jansson letters suggest that sometimes she wrote to her lover Tuulikki Pietilä in Swedish and Tuulikki wrote back in Finnish, which I think is neat.)

[trobadora]

Would it actually be a feasible model in some sense for a foreign language course? (Not planning to create one, just curious.)

I'm not sure - it depends so much on what you already know, and everyone knows different things! Though you could make language courses for people who already know specific other languages, and then draw on those connections.

Congrats on your Yuletide progress!

[nnozomi]

it depends so much on what you already know, and everyone knows different things! Though you could make language courses for people who already know specific other languages, and then draw on those connections.
Yes, that would be a really practical approach--the way you and I and laireshi all study Chinese a bit differently because we're coming from different linguistic places, for instance. (Although sharing those is also fun ;) )

[antisoppist]

I think of Rilla every time I have to carry a cake up the hill, which is a thing in my village that happens more often that you would expect.

[nnozomi]

every time I have to carry a cake up the hill, which is a thing in my village that happens more often that you would expect.
Ha! Anything to get up the hill. I'd forgotten the cake part, but I still remember Rilla and her despised fancy hat. I think she's actually my favorite of the Anne books.

[alessandriana]

It's definitely something I experience. I can understand significant portions of Romance languages I've never learned just because there's an element of the words that I recognize from Spanish, or Italian, or w/e.

Would it actually be a feasible model in some sense for a foreign language course?

I wonder if you could do it with something like Latin-- teach the root words and then use it as a jumping off point for other romance languages.

[nnozomi]

I wonder if you could do it with something like Latin-- teach the root words and then use it as a jumping off point for other romance languages.
That sounds like it would definitely work! And you could extend it by teaching, like, the way the root words are likely to change in each language, so that it's easier to recognize them in their final forms and to predict what the X-language version might be (for instance in Italian vs Spanish, identifying Alessandriana as Alejandriana and vice versa? ;) ).
(sorry, I can't shut up when I get started on language rambling...)

[chestnut_pod]

an ever-expanding network of connected nodes -- I do think this is true (though the effect on me is sometimes that I start out a sentence in one language and pass through two others before ending at a fourth). All my "new languages" seem to sit together in one part of the brain.

*goes to seek out those Jansson letters*

[nnozomi]

I do think this is true (though the effect on me is sometimes that I start out a sentence in one language and pass through two others before ending at a fourth). All my "new languages" seem to sit together in one part of the brain.
Oh yes! That can be really fun if you're talking to someone who understands all of them, but not so helpful in language class. Or when your brain decides to conjugate a verb in language X according to the rules of language Y... ;)

*goes to seek out those Jansson letters*
let me know what you think if you end up reading them!

[scytale]

Coming out of lurkerdom to comment on the language learning stuff -- hello!

It's been my experience in my own and other people's language learning that skillful language learners are the ones who are good at making connections--between the new language and the one(s) they already know, within the new language, and so on. So that instead of endless confusing lists in your head, you have an ever-expanding network of connected nodes, as it were

I wouldn't call myself a skillful language learner by any means, but I have experienced this! Apart from making things easier, it makes me feel better. When I'm memorizing, there's a part of me panicking because there's so much to remember. But if I've connected it to something, then my brain can relax because it's not that hard, and also I get a tiny bit of internal validation from making a connection I think is clever.

I've read a few books claiming that this is how learning works in general -- you want to encourage the learner to make connections and meaning on their own, and in fact it's the most important part of learning. Teaching for Understanding is one of the systems that use it.

I find the idea of a class based around those things interesting -- one thing that strikes me is that it encourages learning a language into a process of discovering and being creative with playing with concepts. It sounds very fun (but also potentially slower, which could turn off learners?).

(Also, the fruit and flowers are pretty!)

[nnozomi]

Coming out of lurkerdom to comment on the language learning stuff -- hello!
Hello! Always very welcome.

When I'm memorizing, there's a part of me panicking because there's so much to remember. But if I've connected it to something, then my brain can relax because it's not that hard, and also I get a tiny bit of internal validation from making a connection I think is clever.
Yes! This is a really good description, and one reason I feel like this idea of connection should be utilized more in language classes.

Teaching for Understanding is one of the systems that use it. I find the idea of a class based around those things interesting -- one thing that strikes me is that it encourages learning a language into a process of discovering and being creative with playing with concepts. It sounds very fun (but also potentially slower, which could turn off learners?).
I hadn't heard of Teaching for Understanding before, thanks. I do agree that a class of this kind would have to be structured pretty carefully to make it effective--fun to think about, hard to realize (but helpful as an idea?). How to avoid the worst problems of the grammar-translation method without going to the opposite extreme of problems, and so on.

and thanks! <3

[laireshi]

You did! It's so pretty.

Reading a collection of Tove Jansson's letters (expertly translated by Sarah Death from the Swedish). My usual habit of preferring letters/diaries to fiction; they're delightful, art and writing and family and life in Helsinki and a startling number of lovers both male and female, all written up with immense verve and flair.
Ooh, now I want to read them too!

[nnozomi]

<3 <3 <3

Ooh, now I want to read them too!
Recommended! I'm only halfway through but she's really a lot of fun.

[cyphomandra]

Ooh I love persimmons. So pretty and delicious.

I did a first year linguistics course that really helped in giving me a scaffolding to support language learning; I’d done French (and Latin) before then, and had spent a year trying and failing to learn Mandarin. (I am not by any means fluent in other languages but I’ve learnt a bit of quite a few; I did German at high school as well but got on very badly with the teacher and rapidly dropped it for geography).

Analysing underlying language concepts and doing things like decoding the phonemes I used (and the tenuous relationship they bore to English spelling), looking at how different languages treat tenses etc, was really helpful in working out why I’d struggled so much with Mandarin and was also helpful when later I started learning Japanese. (Conveniently also the vowel sounds for Japanese are very similar to Italian, which is the language I’ve used most in actual conversations with native speakers, and te reo Māori)

One of the things my last Italian tutor was really big on was learning an instinct for the language, which I suppose is internalizing those underlying principles; what looks and sounds right (or wrong).

[nnozomi]

Ooh I love persimmons. So pretty and delicious.
<3 How do you eat them--just peeled and cut up? I didn't grow up with persimmons (the first time I saw them I thought "why are those tomatoes orange") and I never really know what to do with them.

Analysing underlying language concepts and doing things like decoding the phonemes I used, looking at how different languages treat tenses etc, was really helpful in working out why I’d struggled so much with Mandarin and was also helpful when later I started learning Japanese. (Conveniently also the vowel sounds for Japanese are very similar to Italian and te reo Māori)
Yes! I've been having this problem with Mandarin--no, the romanization is not like Japanese, the vowels are not what you expect, and so on. I have to rely instead on the ways it is like both Japanese and English. I think the more languages you study, the easier it gets, because you have more referents--oh, the pronunciation is like language X, the verb conjugation works like language Y, and so on.

learning an instinct for the language, which I suppose is internalizing those underlying principles; what looks and sounds right (or wrong)
Agree that this is super important (and fun when you succeed a little) and hard! I haven't arrived at any way to do it except immersion or facsimiles thereof (including reading a lot).

[umadoshi]

I remember so little of Rilla of Ingleside clearly, but the fragments that have stuck have stuck HARD.

Lovely photos, as always!

[nnozomi]

I remember so little of Rilla of Ingleside clearly, but the fragments that have stuck have stuck HARD.
Yes! It really is that kind of book.

and thanks <3 🌸

[tinny]

It's been my experience in my own and other people's language learning that skillful language learners are the ones who are good at making connections--between the new language and the one(s) they already know

Well, yes. Absolutely. How to base a course on that: no idea! :D I just put all my hope on mnemonics (we call them "Eselsbrücke" in German = "donkey bridge"), making another connection to the new word immediately. Every additional connection helps.

I also tried to get my ex-boyfriend to practice making connections by putting a word in the middle of a piece of paper and then associating it with things that go in various directions of it (physical, temporal, categories like that). I have no idea if that's useful, it just seemed so to my 20-year-old self. :)

I couldn't remember the word for mouse, as in the computer kind, so I just typed 小老鼠

Hee. My popup dictionary insists that the "little mouse" is the "@" character. I suck at modern/digital world vocab, so that surprised me. Again learned something. :D

peculiarly local images

What is that in the fourth image? I can't make my eyes recognize any angle in which to interpret it. It looks like a model temple gate fallen over. O_o

Also, I love the red trees between blue water and blue buildings. <3

[nnozomi]

I just put all my hope on mnemonics (we call them "Eselsbrücke" in German = "donkey bridge"), making another connection to the new word immediately. Every additional connection helps.
Donkey bridge! Love it.

making connections by putting a word in the middle of a piece of paper and then associating it with things that go in various directions of it (physical, temporal, categories like that)
Yes! I feel like this is a practice that could be refined/used more in language learning, although God knows how.

What is that in the fourth image? I can't make my eyes recognize any angle in which to interpret it. It looks like a model temple gate fallen over. O_o
That's basically exactly what it is! It's a model temple gate placed in front of a boarded-up building as a shorthand sign meaning, pardon my French, "don't piss here." I was quite surprised to learn that little torii signs like this did not actually mean "this place has religious significance," lol.

<3 <3 🍁

[elenothar]

Would it actually be a feasible model in some sense for a foreign language course? (Not planning to create one, just curious.)

I suspect it depends a little too much on the given learner (I keep being surprised that other people remember things in different ways than I do, even though I shouldn't be). That said, in the imaginary Zhu Yilong Chinese textbook (😉) you could probably come up with a general set of associations that hold true for most people - and also do the reverse, in a sense, by spider-webbing all the Chinese info as well. I find a lot of language textbooks are weirdly segmented and I'm convinced you could do that better. I also wonder if it might help just to... explain language learning more like this? Even if you have no generalised practical implementation, just getting people to think of the fact that they could try to associate what they're learning in a connected way like this could be useful. (I may or may not have beef with the way languages were taught at school that's shining through here tbh...)

[nnozomi]

I was going to quote relevant bits of your comment but I just agree with everything you said! (Especially our imaginary Chinese textbook, lol). I do feel like explaining the idea that you can make active connections among what you're learning, with specific examples, could be helpful for people who don't always do it naturally. (With some intermediate English students, I like doing a lesson on Latin and Greek roots and showing them, like, how you can go from "graffiti" to "photography" to "photosynthesis" and so on...).

(I may or may not have beef with the way languages were taught at school that's shining through here tbh...)
Don't even get me started on the way English is taught in Japan, I have several hours' worth of ranting on the subject, oh dear. Almost anything would be an improvement. (It's one reason I'm always so impressed by the flawless English used by my DW friends who are not native speakers, present company of course included if I'm remembering correctly.)

[elenothar]

I'm making myself somewhat sad with thoughts about this imaginary Chinese textbook now because it would be so cool but also there's no way I could do it 😂

With some intermediate English students, I like doing a lesson on Latin and Greek roots and showing them, like, how you can go from "graffiti" to "photography" to "photosynthesis" and so on...

Yes, that's exactly the sort of thing I mean! I do this anyway when I'm learning because I find etymology fascinating on its own, but sometimes obvious connections don't actually register until years later I go 'wait! those two words are related dammit!'.

Always happy to listen to language teaching rants if you ever feel like getting it out :)

I should be fair - the English teaching I got in school (you did remember correctly, my native language is German) was actually effective for me; my English was already pretty good when I went on an exchange year and got it to fluent. But there're couple of caveats there, in that I did a lot of extracurricular reading of English books and I definitely also saw classmates who learned much less even though they were trying. Also, in retrospect after learning more about linguistics in general, I had so many moments of 'omg why didn't they do it that way in school' (the first one of these was phonemic spelling/the IPA - pronunciation would have been so much easier to learn if you had just taught us that, especially for English which is totally bonkers).

[nnozomi]

sometimes obvious connections don't actually register until years later I go 'wait! those two words are related dammit!'.
It's so much fun when that happens, though, soon or late.

I did a lot of extracurricular reading of English books and I definitely also saw classmates who learned much less even though they were trying.
Yeah, these are both really good points--having the interest to get into stuff entirely outside of class, and also there is an issue of baseline aptitude, although of course it's not the only factor. (See also: me barely passing high school math...).

phonemic spelling/the IPA - pronunciation would have been so much easier to learn if you had just taught us that, especially for English which is totally bonkers).
Okay, you want just a little bit of my language teaching rant? Current junior high school English textbooks in Japan do in fact give the IPA pronunciation for new words. HOWEVER, you know what they don't have? There is no table anywhere in the book telling you how to pronounce the IPA, and there are no units teaching IPA, ever. So it's essentially worse than useless. How this never occurred to the people making the textbooks I cannot imagine, maybe they're all so disengaged from the classroom (being in large part college professors who have never taught junior high school) that they just think all junior high school kids can read IPA? /rant

thoughts about this imaginary Chinese textbook now because it would be so cool but also there's no way I could do it
Let's call it a long-term goal ;)

[elenothar]

... oh man, that is almost (and I only say almost because hopefully the teachers will notice and provide a table and talk it through, not that it should all rest on them) worse than not talking about it at all? Why would you even put that in a textbook without explanation, who ia that going to help.

Let's call it a long-term goal ;)

Sure, sure, I'll put it on the long list of unlikely long-term goals, right below getting my book published and actually finishing writing the second one XD